Other Free "basic" libraries.

effettivamente ogni linguaggio di programmazione offre di base strumenti che ne aumentano la produttività con librerie alle maggiori case come Google firebase Dropbox ed altre, capisco che il lavoro di singoli sviluppatori va pagato ma più un linguaggio è potente più deve offrire maggiori possibilità ed una casa produttrice dovrebbe sfruttare i singoli sviluppatori per ampliare la propria offerta di servizi già ampiamente pagati

actually every programming language offers basic tools that increase its productivity with libraries to the major houses like Google firebase Dropbox and others, I understand that the work of individual developers must be paid but more a language is powerful the more it has to offer more possibilities and a manufacturer should take advantage of individual developers to expand their already widely paid service offerings

LucaMs said:

Firestore's stuff, like all Google's stuff, should be provided for free.

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You are FREE to write another wrapper and provide it for FREE if you prefer.

I humbly disagree. "Basic" libraries is very relative. If you look for example to the work the author has to put into the Cloud Firestore library (even had to decompile to find out how the manifest should be) just to make if very easy to use in B4X, he has every right to ask for donation if he wants to. You can not expect Erel to write every library. I think he has the "basic" ones covered.

One of the strong things about B4X is the large number of developers that contribute by taking this out of his hands and writing it for the community. The number of new (changed) features that come out is staggering and a lot more than one person can handle. Others writing libraries gives Erel the time to make B4X the best it can be today.

LucaMs said:

otherwise members could start thinking of moving to the free Android Studio

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I think once people find B4X, the chances are very slim. Android Studio is sluggish and more complex than B4X. B4X makes complicated thing easy. A lot of them would facepalm themselves for not having made that small donation which would've made their lives so much easier. B4X will beat Android Studio in production speed every time, and that alone justifies the donation as developing time costs a heck of a lot more money. And at the end, you only have Android covered, let alone the other platforms.

And last but not least, it is a showing of appreciation to the authors work. Many do this in their spare times (or for a project they need it for) and could easily keep it for themselves, but decide it can benefit the community. Some (most) are free, others will have a small price. If I compare "plugins" from other languages, who sometimes charge hundreds of $ to provide really basic functionalities which should be out-of-the-box (just naming Xojo as an example), I don't think we can complain here.

I know you wrote this as a suggestion, not a request. Which is cool. And I'm only replying my view to the matter. I think B4X as it exists today is one of the greatest things that have helped me bringing food to the table. Doing a donation is a bit like paying it forward to yourself, one may say. You pick the fruits later by being able to sell the app you made in record time!

alwaysbusy said:

I humbly disagree. "Basic" libraries is very relative. If you look for example to the work the author has to put into the Cloud Firestore library (even had to decompile to find out how the manifest should be) just to make if very easy to use in B4X, he has every right to ask for donation if he wants to

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I am not referring to the many libraries created by "wrappers" (or even created from scratch). I understand that there is work behind and that you have to get paid.
I refer to fundamental libraries such as Firebase and the like.

alwaysbusy said:

If I compare "plugins" from other languages, who sometimes charge hundreds of $ to provide really basic functionalities which should be out-of-the-box (just naming Xojo as an example), I don't think we can complain here.

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Most libraries are wrappers of sources taken from GitHub; a developer who uses Android Studio (and therefore Java) would easily import them.

BUT THIS IS NOT THE TOPIC OF MY THREAD. I am sure that Erel will have understood the focus of the subject.

alwaysbusy said:

And last but not least

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And last but not least...

I also donated, even if only a couple of times, I'm not at all against this. I believe, I repeat, that "Firebase code" and the like should be free instead and also provided by Anywhere Software. Possibly, in this specific case, Erel could pay for the work done by DonManfred and publish the library for free.

I don't need the library in question (I don't know what it is for, exactly! )

I think that a community of developers so smart to create well-functioning wrappers should be "exploited" and paid to give everyone the opportunity to use their creations, I don't ask developers not to get paid, I would gladly pay 2 more € license for every well-made wrapper of almost essential libraries

The main issue here is, as in most of this kind of things, who would define which libs/wrappers to be "fundamental" or "essential"?

Some Dev could think a particular lib to be essential to HIS project, but not others...
B4X, as it stands today, provides every single functionality to create a basic (pun) application. For more advanced applications, I believe it is logical to pay for them.
We can buy a 5000€ car that takes us where we want to go, but if we want media car system, GPS, backing camera... Ones has to pay for them as EXTRAS

Cableguy said:

who would define which libs/wrappers to be "fundamental" or "essential"?

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Well, as you can find, there are b4a libraries:

FirebaseNotifications
FirebaseAdmob
FirebaseAuth
FirebaseStorage

Why? Because Erel considered these "necessary", certainly not for the classic "hello world"!

LucaMs said:

I refer to fundamental libraries such as Firebase and the like.

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Firebase costs 25€/month for real-life use. I don't consider this fundamental for a cheap RAD tool as B4X. It is yet another iteration 'backed' by google of the cloud system formally known as GCM. That is the problem with all this 'Google Labs' stuff: it depreciates faster than one can write a wrapper (yes, writing such a library IS A WRAPPER around a Java jar/API).

I don't know if you have written many libraries for B4X, but every B4X library is in essence the same: a wrapper around some java. Some are easy githubs, others like Firebase will be a lot more complex. So I'm very glad @DonManfred did all the hard work in case I will ever need it. And I will do the donation with a smile But is it essential? Not for me. It is a great addition for those who need it, and they can directly communicate with the developer: what could one ask more for.

Cableguy said:

who would define which libs/wrappers to be "fundamental" or "essential"?

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I think @Cableguy nailed it. Fundamental is something almost everyone needs and as you say it yourself, you don't (neither do I and probably many more). If Erel deems it important enough because many people need it, he is capable enough to make that decision for himself to make it part of B4X (as he has done many times before). It is not only writing, one has to maintain it too and many hands make light work.

@LordZenzo 's idea sounds valid, but it faces the same problem. Many developers who write a library they consider essential, but are not included in this deal because others think it isn't, would feel left out. And in so, we could all miss out on another killer library he would've have written if he had been included. Many libraries (including my own) spring into existence because the author has a direct need for it. We are not waiting for someone to ask for something. That is what the job forum is for.

LucaMs said:

Erel considered these "necessary"

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I'm not so sure about that. Erel is out-of-this-world and likes to fiddle with everything new that comes out for his own amusement and then shares it with us. If he could (and maybe he does!) when he's done working, he would let his car talk with a bot (over MQTT) to instruct the stove to fix him dinner (over Bluetooth), fill a hot bath (over Wifi), turn on the heat in the living room using Googles NEST while his drone lets out the dog. And I'm pretty sure I missed a couple of other things.

and to think that android was born from an idea of free thinkers and free developers who, starting from unix, first created the linux world and finally the android world, google and cronies have only taken their job to make it renumbered

LordZenzo said:

and to think that android was born from an idea of free thinkers and free developers who, starting from unix, first created the linux world and finally the android world, google and cronies have only taken their job to make it renumbered

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That's like comparing the Wright Brothers to Boing, or AirBus... They only wanted to prove men could fly!

Cableguy said:

That's like comparing the Wright Brothers to Boing, or AirBus... They only wanted to prove men could fly!

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without which the world would be much slower

alwaysbusy said:

Firebase costs 25€/month for real-life use.

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I use Firebase Analytics & Crashlytics in all my apps (both Android & iOS) & in some of them I log a lot of events. I also use FCM in a couple of apps. I've never paid a cent for any of it.

- Colin.

1. Firebase CloudStore pricing table: https://firebase.google.com/pricing/

2. I'm very happy that DonManfred did the hard work of wrapping this SDK: https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/threads/chargeable-firebase-cloud-firestore.105067/#content

3. The fact that a service is listed under the Firebase umbrella doesn't mean that it is a fundamental service that must be provided as an internal library. I don't consider it a "basic" feature.

LucaMs said:

but this kind of libraries should be provided by Anywhere Software itself

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+1

alwaysbusy said:

If you look for example to the work the author has to put into the Cloud Firestore library (even had to decompile to find out how the manifest should be) just to make if very easy to use in B4X, he has every right to ask for donation if he wants to.

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That is the reason Lucas suggested AnywhereSoftware provide these libraries.
Firebase is one of the best solution for NoSQL Databases.
Any online app will need implementations for authentication and database. Why is Cloud Firestore not considered as "Basic"? Also, it seems that the real-time database is not maintained anymore (very thankful for the efforts Donmanfred and everyone who contributed).

Firebase is growing more popular every year. If every developer has to individually write wrappers for very publicly and commonly available and used SDKs before starting projects, many developers will be switching.