Is Android the desktop O/S of the future?

[SPLatMan]

This post is in part a bit of crystal ball gazing, in part a serious consideration of how to future-proof my next Big Project. Also a possible idea for Erel.

During 2012 there is a high probability that I will be starting to write an all-new IDE for our embedded machine controller product. The original is 15+ years old, started out as a VB3 app, got migrated to VB6 and is now approaching end of life. I am having trouble maintaining it in my new Win7 computer.

In considering what to do for the future version (it has to be a brand new program due to architecture changes in our controller product), I have the choice of VB.NET or perhaps Java. Learning VB.NET will be traumatic, even for an old VB'er. Learning Java will be even harder, but could make our product more future proof (in short, I don't trust Micro$oft any more!)

Android is making huge inroads into the phone and portable computing market. Could it start taking over the mainstream PC and laptop markets? Could we see a day where a significant number of PC/laptop users are running Android rather than Windows? If that happens, I don't want to be locked out from their business!

I started wondering about the benefits of Java in such a scenario. Then the thought struck me: What if B4A could target Windows computers? If I had such a development tool, I could develop for Windows now and know that the program would also work in future Android based PC/laptops with (hopefully) relative minor tweaks.

I realise this is a HUGE ask, even though Java exists on both platforms. But if Android should get a strong foothold in the mainstream computer market, a company with a BASIC development environment that can target current and future desktops, as well as mobile platforms, would have have a huge competitive advantage.

So is B4A&W feasible?

David Stonier-Gibson
Samsung Galaxy ACE, 2.3.4
http://splatco.com

 

[agraham]

I don't understand why you would say "I don't trust Micro$oft any more!" but what really matters is what the customers for your IDE are running. That is what you need to target and my guess is that it is Windows and not Linux.

There really would be no such thing as "B4A for Windows" as the application and GUI models are so different that it would be a different language - though having said that it sort of exists already in that Basic4ppc can already target desktops quite nicely using the Windows Forms GUI.

You could look at Java and then you would need to select the GUI to use for your implementation - Java GUIs generally don't look as good as Windows. Swing is portable but sucks visually, SWT looks best as it uses the native controls of whatever platform it runs on - Eclipse uses an enhaced version called Jface.

If you were prepared to use Java I would go the extra step and use C#, it's very similar and I prefer it. You would have a choice of three GUIs then. The "traditional" Windows Forms, Windows Presentation Manager and, under Windows 8, Metro. The same three GUIs are also available should you want to use VB.NET but Metro is probably too new to penetrate your target market for the next few years (and anyway I don't like it ).

Even though Windows Forms is the oldest it can be simpler to use for straightforward "text and button" applications than the other two which are in fact similar and more "graphics effect" oriented. Windows Forms will not be further developed but will be fully supported by Windows for at least another decade, probably a lot more, as it is very important for the business community.

Microsoft is committed to bringing VB.NET and C# into line with each other so there will be no difference in capability between the two. I would therefore go for C# as I find it more concise and so quicker to write and easier to read than VB.NET which I think has grown overly verbose to fit it onto the .NET Common Language Runtime (CLR) platform.

About Android on the desktop - I personally can't see it displacing Windows or Linux, it's a portable consumer oriented single tasking (despite the marketing hype) media consumption environment not a productivity environment.

 

[SPLatMan]

@agraham , thank you for the detailed and thoughtful reply. It will take a bit of digesting. My key question was really about whether Windows is at risk of being displaced by Android any time soon, and hence placing anything I develop at risk. Working on Linux has never been an issue for us, nor Apple (fewer than 5 requests for each in 15 years).

As to why I distrust M$, it's really about the fact that successive versions of their O/S render older apps inoperable. I have seen very many complaints on VB fora from people in small companies who have mission critical specialised applications developed over many years in VB6, and who are now left semi-high and dry by Win7. The VB6 IDE is not officially supported. It cost me a few grey hairs to find ways of using it on my new Win7 laptop. M$ want us to migrate to .NET. I understand there are many very good reasons for that. But it is easier said than done with existing skill sets and possible 3rd party components. My mission critical app had to be upgraded from VB3 to VB6 a few years ago. That was quite a costly exercise. Much of the cost was in converting away from two 3rd party components that had no 32-bit versions. The end result is better, and has ultimately allowed us to add new features more easily, but it was costly and disruptive to our business.

Your comments about the implausibility of Android threatening the desktop market, due to not being multitasking, are noted (and comforting). Now that Google have surely had a taste of M$ blood, will they be content with dominating the mobile market, or might they keep on going and address multitasking?

David Stonier-Gibson
Samsung Galaxy ACE, 2.3.4
http://splatco.com

 

[thedesolatesoul]

There are a few interesting points I'd like to make here:

1. Google is a disruptive company, in that it likes to set itself challenges and goals which involve gameplay/competition with other companies. They may go in any direction at any time and do not mind abandoning old products and moving on. Their organisational structure allows them to make fast decisions and adapt to the market.

2. Google already has ChromeOS for netbooks (which is not even properly launched). Since they have two OSes, who knows which one they will use, or they may merge both.

3. The one-size-fits-all approach does not usually work in technology. AndroidOS is not a productivity platform as Andrew said. It cannot multi-task, and it is well behind desktop OSes. Even simple tasks like copying/pasting is a burden. It is definitely a connectivity and media consumption device (as we will see SmartTVs coming out with Android).

For now, I will trust MS more than Google, mainly because as I have following Android development from 1.6 to 4.0, Android was found to be well under developed and they kept improving the OS. In doing that, they broke backwards compatibility and brought a slew of other problems.
Whereas Windows may have similar problems (not always) but atleast it takes them more time to release a new version.

 

[agraham]

As to why I distrust M$, it's really about the fact that successive versions of their O/S render older apps inoperable.

I must entirely disagree with that statement. As far as I can see Microsoft has always gone out of its way to maintain backwards compatibility as it is very important for the corporate market which needs to run stuff written decades ago. You can still run DOS apps under Windows 7 32 bit. I've just run my DOS character based Forth development environment written over 20 years ago on a Windows 7 32bit VM running on my Windows 7 64 bit machine.

I have seen very many complaints on VB fora from people in small companies who have mission critical specialised applications developed over many years in VB6, and who are now left semi-high and dry by Win7.

They are not left high and dry and may be commenting in ignorance. The official Microsoft way of running such legacy apps on Win7 64bit is "XP Mode with Virtual PC". Other possibilities are hosting XP on the excellent free VirtualBox from Oracle, which also runs on 32bit as well as 64bit systems, and of course VMware.

 

[DOM85]

You can still run DOS apps under Windows 7 32 bit. I've just run my DOS character based Forth development environment written over 20 years ago on a Windows 7 32bit VM running on my Windows 7 64 bit machine.

No, definitly no, Microsoft don't matter for compatibility with older versions. For example DOS programs runs 10 time slower in W7/XP than in W98, because nox DOS is only interpreted. I know a company who had big problems for running its old DOS programs on W7.
In addition, much functions and components disapears between systems, for the reason that MS business is to sell OS, and their interest is evident to push customers toward new versions. In addition, SP2, SP3, etc become progressively compulsory trough in the time. Don't forget also than Windows OS are in multiple versions desktop and Ce. Android is unique OS through different platforms, and we can suspect that Google will soon power Android, maybe to replace one day Win... Future will say it!

 

[agraham]

You really don't know what you are talking about do you!

 

[vb1992]

You really don't know what you are talking about do you!

lol

 

[thedesolatesoul]

Don't forget also than Windows OS are in multiple versions desktop and Ce. Android is unique OS through different platforms, and we can suspect that Google will soon power Android, maybe to replace one day Win... Future will say it!

You must be joking, right? Comparing Android to Windows like that?
It is a really really wide scope of things to compare.
Think about the big picture, not these isolated incidents with small companies.
Think about the corporate world, the enterprise, where MS provides technical support.
And regardless of technical issues, Microsoft has a LONG history of trust and relationship with all companies whereas Android will find that impossible to build.

Right now, I cannot even imagine running Office 2010 over a Dalvik VM. Talk about speed?

 

[DOM85]

You really don't know what you are talking about do you!

I know how you are competent in some languages, and i respect you. But you can't talk like that. I know much systems, developping on Sun, Silicons,pc Windows, and even microcontroller, managing projects for mulinational companies etc,unuseful to add anything. So please, stay correct and modest as all of us in this forum, even if my purposes don't go in your sense.
Regards.

 

[DOM85]

You must be joking, right? Comparing Android to Windows like that?
It is a really really wide scope of things to compare.
Think about the big picture, not these isolated incidents with small companies.
Think about the corporate world, the enterprise, where MS provides technical support.
And regardless of technical issues, Microsoft has a LONG history of trust and relationship with all companies whereas Android will find that impossible to build.

Right now, I cannot even imagine running Office 2010 over a Dalvik VM. Talk about speed?

You are right for the present. But see how was Windows at its beginning (Win 3). I expect that Google will make a true desktop system in the future.

 

[thedesolatesoul]

You are right for the present. But see how was Windows at its beginning (Win 3). I expect that Google will make a true desktop system in the future.

You may be right, that may(should) happen in the (distant) future, but there are reasons why they will probably not use Android (possibly ChromeOS). One of them being, MS is cashing out on Android due to patent issues.

 

[agraham]

But see how was Windows at its beginning (Win 3).

Actually there was Win 1 and Win 2 before Win 3 - I know, I used them both.

 

[bluedude]

Well, we have a company called Bluestacks that has brought Android to Windows. Basically it is a consumer friendly packed emulator.

Used it a few times and works fine.

I think consumer behavior changes and a lot of special apps. will move to tablets (Android, iPad) but mainstream apps. will be a problem.

In the end I can believe consumers will use less laptops. Office workers however I doubt.

I still need to see if Android will stay, ZTE just told the world they pay $27 per device license fee to Microsoft, that is a lot.


Cheers,

 

[Cableguy]

I've just been reading this thred, and couldn't help myself to write a few lines...
@Agraham:
You just cant help show off and being pedantica at times, do you? But Hey! That the Andrew we know, RESPECT and love for the aditional asset it has become to this forum...

@ the rest of the mortals....

I have no experience in software development, expecially compared to some of you...
I have entered this comunity when B4Ppc still needed a "runner" in the device side to run the apps... And I develop for FUN, SELF-Gratification and SELF-Challenge...
My first PC was a Hard-Driveless PC1 from Olivetti, x86 processor...
So I went through DOS ( MS and DR), then came windows, wich was NOT an OS from scratch, and we needed to enter the "Win" command in the DOS prompt...
As stated by Andrew, There were Win1, 2, and 3... And If my Timeframe is correct, they went from 1 to 3 in the same year...
The Real windows OS became true with Win3.1, wich finally brought the "familiar" windows interface to live...
In the following 2 or 3 years, both uProcessor and OS ( read MS ), brought the PC industry from the Entrerprises Offices, to everybody's Houses, Introducin win95, win98 etc...
But is all common knowleage...
What I am trying to say is, Google becoming a Desktop OS develoer is NOT such a crazy Idea...
True, they have a long way to go...
True, The Adroid OS, as is, Is NOT perfect, Nor suited to run in a desktop...
True, people will not jump into a Google based OS...
But look at the Desktop Market...
Even Though MS has about 90% of it, there are still MAC irreductibles, and the LINUX comunity doesn cease to grow...
Why havent Linux become the main OS for desktops?
Because the first version of it took a computer expert to setup the system...
IF a Windows Like version Of linux were made available from the start, ( Yes, I knw they now have them..), maybe the OS industry would be different now...
Tha is what Android has best to offer at the moment...
It is much more versatile than MAC, or LINUX, better looking than Windows...AND IT ALREADY HAS MORE THAN 70% OF THE MOBILE DEVICES MARKET...
The door is open...wether if Google will go through it or not...I dont know...
But I do think it has become a real possability...