Found OpenXava for Web Applications

MarkusR said:

OT

the syntax from delphi requiring getting used to, not intuitive and always i got cryptic error messages after i run something.
the database controls are so many for a simple task and terrible designed.
delphi is stubborn as a mule and developing is a waiting game.
maybe i invest my time later on.

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I think I agree with you on the DB part. Delphi is a mule when is comes to developing business software with database back end. I have still not been able to understand as to why there have to be so many data access controls (connection, query, dataset, etc.) just to connect to a database. As per my opinion it should be as easy as VB6 just one control to connect to most database!

As Delhi is based on Pascal the language will surely feel a bit obscure. But I love it.

Indic Software said:

I have still not been able to understand as to why there have to be so many data access controls (connection, query, dataset, etc.) just to connect to a database.

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I don't see why you think there are that many. Every DB application needs to connect to a DB this is done very clean in one component without coding and is used by all datasources. The TDatasource is just the provider, you can connect it to any presentation component. Still without coding. The TQuery is obvious. You can auto create all the fields as objects if you want. Of course you can do it all in code. But it's much more maintainable to have it visualized in components I think. Every developer opening the application can see what you are doing without poking around in the code.

I never saw VB as a competitor of Delphi although many VB developers did. VB was so much slower in every aspect. Always trouble with dependencies, OCX, DLL ODBC connections or what soever. I did my first windows development experience with VB but never looked back as soon I discovered Delphi.

The biggest flaw of Delphi is the company developing Delphi I think. They don't have the resources anymore to keep up.

SayCheese said:

I don't see why you think there are that many. Every DB application needs to connect to a DB this is done very clean in one component without coding and is used by all datasources. The TDatasource is just the provider, you can connect it to any presentation component. Still without coding. The TQuery is obvious. You can auto create all the fields as objects if you want. Of course you can do it all in code. But it's much more maintainable to have it visualized in components I think. Every developer opening the application can see what you are doing without poking around in the code.

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I am not trying to argue with you but it seems you have not seen or used any other competing dev tools. I think you need to explore a few 5GL dev tools.

SayCheese said:

I never saw VB as a competitor of Delphi although many VB developers did. VB was so much slower in every aspect. Always trouble with dependencies, OCX, DLL ODBC connections or what soever. I did my first windows development experience with VB but never looked back as soon I discovered Delphi.

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In my case the story is different. I started developing in Windows using C. But the day I saw VB I dumped C and took the decision to use VB exclusively for all development in Windows. In fact my life became easier by using VB and its event driven architecture. I still develop software in VB6 as well as in Delphi.
Regarding VB being slower is valid in a very few scenarios like image processing.

But when it comes to business software with database back end both are equal in performance. I am saying this after programming in both extensively. We have built a plugable ERP solution in VB6 and sold it to 48 corporates. It is still working in most of these. Then we had a bad idea of trying to rewrite the ERP in Delphi. We succeeded after 1 year of hard work. But in terms of performance both were equal.

Kiffi said:

A little feedback: I just installed and started LiveCode. After a 10 minute short test I have to say that I don't like it. I have rarely seen such an unintuitive development environment. Many actions don't work right away, but only after you have closed and reopened the corresponding windows/dialogues. One notices very fast that the IDE was originally written for the Apple operating system and was adapted only makeshift to Windows. As written: Personally I don't like it and won't use it.

Greetings ... Peter

Addendum: Even uninstalling LiveCode does not work.

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Kiffi
I'm little bit surprised with your bad experience about Livecode (former RunREV), which roots lay in Hypercard developed for Apple Mac and still have "card" logic!
it was not free at first , but if I remember well they start since ver. 5 to release public free version. This version is full working but can't lock code and missing some functions which are beyond scope many users. I use this every time when need speed develop desktop application ,and even small app for Raspberry where he receive commands thru sockets. Also Inventory collector app where need to read barcode works wary well on android. Because in my job we use RFID and barcode devices and this devices comes with Java lib for connection and control I'm looking for some development which can implement also Java app. Right now B4X looks promising ,but still missing knowledge about wrapping java code into B4j app.

Indic Software said:

I am not trying to argue with you but it seems you have not seen or used any other competing dev tools. I think you need to explore a few 5GL dev tools.

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No, I didn't think you were arguing. I was interested why you had that feeling. There are only 3 pointers (as you said). Can't be that hard. Although it can be overwhelming to see that many components for the same purpose if you are not used to Delphi.

I don't see 5GL as competitors of Delphi. And yes I've seen them enough to know I'm not the person looking for that kind of tools.
Delhi is a general purpose IDE/tool/language. I think Delphi can be seen as a good mix of C++ and VB.

Then we had a bad idea of trying to rewrite the ERP in Delphi. We succeeded after 1 year of hard work. But in terms of performance both were equal.

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I can't judge about that statement nor about the experience your team had in both languages. For every VB success story there is also a success story of C, C++, Java and yes, Delphi.
As I said in one of my previous posts:

The bottom-line is that it has to work for you whatever the tool is. But what works for you might not work for the next guy. For my daily work which is Windows development, Delphi is very productive and there is nothing is can't do. The compiler is extremely fast and delivers very tight and optimized binaries. But as I said: what is good for me doesn't mean it's necessarily good for you.

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Wouldn't it be fairer to discuss this on a Delphi forum or by PM anymore? This has nothing to do with B4X anymore.

@alwaysbusy : Hi Alain, I think you posted a bit late..it seems they reached an end on the subject.

But if you all desire to rekindle the "flame"..here it is: I simply adhore professor N. Wirth, the Pascal language and Delphi too
A real pity that Borland became Embarcadero, though.

Ok, time for some water on the new flame...I love B4X too. Nowadays I program mostly in B4X, but Pascal remains my first love (I can't forget it).

udg said:

Nowadays I program mostly in B4X, but Pascal remains my first love (I can't forget it)

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I love other languages too, just doesn't seem the place to discuss it here: at this point it looks like a two persons Delphi battle 'I Like, I hate'. Doesn't add any value to the B4X language or to the topic Web Applications so maybe could be better discussed in private.

alwaysbusy said:

Wouldn't it be fairer to discuss this on a Delphi forum or by PM anymore? This has nothing to do with B4X anymore.

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I thought ChitChat is for discussing anything under the sun.

Anyways I have never used Delphi for creating a web server except playing with IntraWeb, but I have tried my hands on DWScript and I immediately ran away from it because it is totally non visual.

In VB6 I have used the fabulous and free VBRichClinet5 and created a server which helped me convert SQLite DB to a multi user server. Again this was not a web server.

But when it comes to a web server and Basic or Pascal or C# I still prefer to use Morfix which is not actively developed for many years now but it is still relevant and truly usable once you cross its not so steep learning curve.

I have also not tried to use ABM for building web apps because its learning curve is very steep for my taste (at the moment) and it is completely non-visual though it seems to be powerful.

Alan I would personally advise you to look up Morfik and try your hands on it. To get the idea as to how you can make ABM visual and easy to learn and use.

And with advent of AI it won't be long before someone releases an IDE that will use AI to complete or correct wrong syntax typed by user.

I believe that in current world any development tool which is not visual, intuitive and easy to grasp and learn will become irrelevant faster then fades of fashion. The tool should be so easy that even a casual user can build something in it and one should not need to be professional programmer to build software as per the ideas he/she has.