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B4X is a set of simple and powerful cross platform RAD tools:
- B4A (free) - Android development
- B4J (free) - Desktop and Server development
- B4i - iOS development
- B4R (free) - Arduino, ESP8266 and ESP32 development
just for discussion: Why B4X is not famous enough
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This guides are great. But if the question is: "how to get new B4X user", the potential users I know, they only want to solve their problem, build an app, realize an idea. Now they are looking for best tools, heard about react native, xamarin, flutter. They are open minded enough, to give B4X a try, but they will not start with reading lots of documentations.
Online or offline, there should be a good organized index of libraries and other things, a bit like the Arduino page with
Reference Language | Libraries | Comparison | Changes
Not only names in the library list, but also, what you can do with it. I tried it onces a bit here, but it is of course not uptodate, that's why I will not reference it anymore. It should be done on the main documentation. Even better a B4X -Documentation, not only B4A.
Read all documentations is for many the second step, if they already started to love B4X.
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My case is almost the same as yours, thanks your share
You mean @Erel? ?
Just to grab the attention, there is a new "share your B4X story" forum: https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/threads/share-your-b4x-story-forum.114787/
Yes, if my IQ were up to 30, I preferred work with Linux or an other new system...but why not making a new system with BAX, sure with more functions, but...why not ??? in the future..in 2083 ?
Yes, thanks, I've friends who are in sad conditions in the city of Ello in the north of Italy. All my thought to them !Is confinement getting to you? Take care, buddy.
As many of You already stated in this discussion it looks that the main disadvantage of B4X environment is it's recalling to BASIC.
This is a consequence of the bad opinion that BASIC gained year over year.
And too many persons are blind minded: when the word BASIC is contained in a sentence about programming than that sentence does not deserve any attention.
I can agree that JAVA, ANDROID STUDIO, KOTLIN, PYTHON can be, or maybe are, more powerful than B4X environment, meaning that they give you Full Access to all the Weaponry if you are able enough to learn these languages in their depth.
B4X give everyone the chance to obtain something that work in a very short time.
And is quite obvious that it's even more easier for people with a minimal VisualBasic knowledge due to it's great similarity in sintax.
I am one of them and I preferred B4X because I had already a base compared to JAVA or others.
One aspect that many people miss is that the final APK generated by B4X is equal to the one generated by ANDROID STUDIO.
It will not be easy to Spread the Word, but it's not impossible.
One action, that was already launched in the past, could be to include in our published apps a message like "Developed with B4X" in the app info or in the splash screen.
With a link that bring people here.
It cost nothing to us and in the worst case it will have no effect.
But it will not harm our apps, no?
This is a consequence of the bad opinion that BASIC gained year over year.
And too many persons are blind minded: when the word BASIC is contained in a sentence about programming than that sentence does not deserve any attention.
I can agree that JAVA, ANDROID STUDIO, KOTLIN, PYTHON can be, or maybe are, more powerful than B4X environment, meaning that they give you Full Access to all the Weaponry if you are able enough to learn these languages in their depth.
B4X give everyone the chance to obtain something that work in a very short time.
And is quite obvious that it's even more easier for people with a minimal VisualBasic knowledge due to it's great similarity in sintax.
I am one of them and I preferred B4X because I had already a base compared to JAVA or others.
One aspect that many people miss is that the final APK generated by B4X is equal to the one generated by ANDROID STUDIO.
It will not be easy to Spread the Word, but it's not impossible.
One action, that was already launched in the past, could be to include in our published apps a message like "Developed with B4X" in the app info or in the splash screen.
With a link that bring people here.
It cost nothing to us and in the worst case it will have no effect.
But it will not harm our apps, no?
I agree 100% with this idea. As the industrial marketing does "This car is a ..", the engine is made by..., the software is developed by..., I think that confirming the origin can help a lot.
Others, especially Winni, has already come up with some good points.
For me the main issues are:
Windows only. This is really a big problem. Virtually all other tools (apart from Apple's, but that's part of why I don't like them) are cross-platform. I am a Linux guy for years, and I regret having to power up Virtualbox to work in B4X. But ok, it works. However, let's face it, very many developers these days use either Mac or Linux and realizing that B4X is Windows only, will probably turn them off immediately.
The documentation. This forum is the main documentation, and I don't find that ideal. It makes the documentation appear fragmented. The video guides are fine for starters, but not for looking up info later on. (In my original post I complained about having to look up info in PDF-files, but Erel has pointed out that there are in fact online HTML-versions of these guides, so this point does not apply. I take it back!)
The IDE is generally excellent, but unfortunately it lacks some features that all developers take for granted. One good example is breakpoints. You can set or remove breakpoints, that's all. You cannot disable breakpoints which is a major PITA. So after a debugging session you have to remove all breakpoints even though you may need them shortly after. You cannot have conditional breakpoints either which is also something I miss a lot.
The language is generally ok and I don't find the name a problem or the fact that it has roots in BASIC. But it does miss some important features that most programmers would expect, such as default parameters in functions. That's why B4X has so many functions called something with 2 or 3 because it has to take into account varying numbers of parameters. Also, the way that local variables are in fact not very local is a problem in my opinion.
So what to do? First and foremost, make a cross-platform version. B4J can make nice cross-platform apps, so I guess it should be possible to write the IDE in B4J?
The documentation could be improved. I know is is a time consuming job, but maybe we, the users, could help. What about a B4X Wiki?
The IDE is already very good and a few additions could make it nearly perfect. Also the language would benefit from "an upgrade".
For me the main issues are:
Windows only. This is really a big problem. Virtually all other tools (apart from Apple's, but that's part of why I don't like them) are cross-platform. I am a Linux guy for years, and I regret having to power up Virtualbox to work in B4X. But ok, it works. However, let's face it, very many developers these days use either Mac or Linux and realizing that B4X is Windows only, will probably turn them off immediately.
The documentation. This forum is the main documentation, and I don't find that ideal. It makes the documentation appear fragmented. The video guides are fine for starters, but not for looking up info later on. (In my original post I complained about having to look up info in PDF-files, but Erel has pointed out that there are in fact online HTML-versions of these guides, so this point does not apply. I take it back!)
The IDE is generally excellent, but unfortunately it lacks some features that all developers take for granted. One good example is breakpoints. You can set or remove breakpoints, that's all. You cannot disable breakpoints which is a major PITA. So after a debugging session you have to remove all breakpoints even though you may need them shortly after. You cannot have conditional breakpoints either which is also something I miss a lot.
The language is generally ok and I don't find the name a problem or the fact that it has roots in BASIC. But it does miss some important features that most programmers would expect, such as default parameters in functions. That's why B4X has so many functions called something with 2 or 3 because it has to take into account varying numbers of parameters. Also, the way that local variables are in fact not very local is a problem in my opinion.
So what to do? First and foremost, make a cross-platform version. B4J can make nice cross-platform apps, so I guess it should be possible to write the IDE in B4J?
The documentation could be improved. I know is is a time consuming job, but maybe we, the users, could help. What about a B4X Wiki?
The IDE is already very good and a few additions could make it nearly perfect. Also the language would benefit from "an upgrade".
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This is very disrespectful. Thousands of hours were invested in building the documentation.
The guides are available here: https://www.b4x.com/android/documentation.html
The video tutorials are here: https://www.b4x.com/etp.html
And the thousands of tutorials are in the forum: https://www.b4x.com/android/forum/forums/tutorials-examples.27/
I don't agree with everything else you wrote however I don't see any point in arguing after this comment.
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I apologize. It was not meant to be, but I surely see how you can read it like that. I wrote it late a night, should probably have waited. I have edited my post a bit.
However, my points still hold that the documentation is fragmented. The information is there, but it could be more coherently presented. But this is my opinion, others might disagree.
As for the other points, you don't have to agree and I also wrote "For me the main issues are". However, I am not the only one thinking for example that a Windows only IDE is a problem.
Also, please note that I call the IDE excellent and I also say that the language is fine too. But there is always room for improvement, it should be ok to point that out.
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When Erel posted about a B4XTurtle library today, I start thinking. B4X is built for some specific platforms. Here in this forum, we always use the word Library to represent a set of module to make developers life easier. It is like a plug in, extension, dll, controls, package or battery included. For the "outside world" (outside of this forum), "library" might not be a good marketing word.
So the keyword here is "Framework". Some developers come from other platform (Microsoft) used .NET, MVC framework. Same with other languages. Can you imagine Python growing without django or flask. PHP without Laravel or Codeigniter. Javascript without Angular, React or Vue.
B4J already have ABMaterial and BANano as framework. B4A need a new framework. B4i is good to have one too.
We actually already have one, the XUI Views. It is great if it can be developed into a new framework. My point here is the framework can become a "bootstrap" tool to create a "wireframe" or generate boilerplate code. It will have some specific guideline or best practice like concept of Material Design. It will have standard conventions like CSS Bootstrap. This will save developer even more time from reinventing the wheel or avoid DRY. Of course I understand B4X suite is already a RAD tool. I hope my concept is not hard to understand.
So the keyword here is "Framework". Some developers come from other platform (Microsoft) used .NET, MVC framework. Same with other languages. Can you imagine Python growing without django or flask. PHP without Laravel or Codeigniter. Javascript without Angular, React or Vue.
B4J already have ABMaterial and BANano as framework. B4A need a new framework. B4i is good to have one too.
We actually already have one, the XUI Views. It is great if it can be developed into a new framework. My point here is the framework can become a "bootstrap" tool to create a "wireframe" or generate boilerplate code. It will have some specific guideline or best practice like concept of Material Design. It will have standard conventions like CSS Bootstrap. This will save developer even more time from reinventing the wheel or avoid DRY. Of course I understand B4X suite is already a RAD tool. I hope my concept is not hard to understand.
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hmmm - is the reason for this thread to find out why b4x is not as well known as it should be ? - and find solutions to increase its recognition and consideration ?
if 2-times 'YES', there is no space for 'this is disrespectful' - sorry Erel for my comment here - because everyone who participates on this thread is willing to help - not to simply criticize
There are lacks which cause b4x beeing invisible or really disrespected what's not fair ...
We should find out where and which they are to correct them to give b4x the position which it deserves...
We all know, the product itself is great - just making marketing better will not help as long as existing problems which has been recognized by users will not be eliminated...
Documentation for sure is one of it... - this does not mean, it is bad - but it means, for new users it's hard to use it as most important parts are only within this forum or really hard to find...
For myself I use B4A licensed for many years and B4J also but i never had been sure whether the content in Vader Consultings B4x Object Browser contains all what I need to know... - 'B4A- or B4J- Help' I never used as I never felt comfortable with it... - I tried more than one time - but 'Sorry' - it is different from all other IDE-Helps I ever saw since 1995... and so I had to find my ways to get the Informations I need... - Because I love this product and I know that all can be resolved which i ever needed...
BUT - new Users don't know this - and they for sure are not willing to find out about this as long as it is not spreaded enough that they easily could ... - B4x is so easy to use but it is more than hard to find out how...
Just my simple thoughts as I would really like to see B4x getting more popular...
My son studies Informatics in germany - he just keeps smiling about me, using B4x... - Every Day I try to make him understand that time for point2point is most important to be successful - even he never brought a product to sale, he disrespects B4x, which I use to make my living... as it really is invisible... - none of his colleagues at university knows about it...
Making it visible is not just being made of OpenSource it - if someone see's it, he should be able to use it faster and more clearly as it is actually...
Sure - using Android-Studio for example is much more complex but the Developer knows that everything can be done with it and also for sure he does not allow that someone could think, he is not able to use it - so he goes the hard way...
'B' for Basic as it is in use at many places here is one of the parts also which makes my son disrespecting this language as they learn at university that 'Basic' is an outdated language which for example is not object-oriented....
One important rule can be 'there is no chance for a second first impression' - all what makes B4x negative different (mainstream-focused) from other languages or IDE's should be eliminated first before thinking about how to increase marketing... - good marketing-plans will end up in bad results if the users are not able to see their efforts clearly...
Finally I will repeat that I love B4x and I'm able to use it successful - but new Users find a product (if they really find it) from which they don't know that its much easier to use than kotlin, java or anything else... - They try to start and see thats completelly different from all other languages they ever tried to find ressources - and then they stop. - So no other new mainstream-users will hear from them about B4x...
Don't know, whether I had been able to make my POV visible to you all - but am willing to make it if you ask for it in detail...
Cheers
Herbert
if 2-times 'YES', there is no space for 'this is disrespectful' - sorry Erel for my comment here - because everyone who participates on this thread is willing to help - not to simply criticize
There are lacks which cause b4x beeing invisible or really disrespected what's not fair ...
We should find out where and which they are to correct them to give b4x the position which it deserves...
We all know, the product itself is great - just making marketing better will not help as long as existing problems which has been recognized by users will not be eliminated...
Documentation for sure is one of it... - this does not mean, it is bad - but it means, for new users it's hard to use it as most important parts are only within this forum or really hard to find...
For myself I use B4A licensed for many years and B4J also but i never had been sure whether the content in Vader Consultings B4x Object Browser contains all what I need to know... - 'B4A- or B4J- Help' I never used as I never felt comfortable with it... - I tried more than one time - but 'Sorry' - it is different from all other IDE-Helps I ever saw since 1995... and so I had to find my ways to get the Informations I need... - Because I love this product and I know that all can be resolved which i ever needed...
BUT - new Users don't know this - and they for sure are not willing to find out about this as long as it is not spreaded enough that they easily could ... - B4x is so easy to use but it is more than hard to find out how...
Just my simple thoughts as I would really like to see B4x getting more popular...
My son studies Informatics in germany - he just keeps smiling about me, using B4x... - Every Day I try to make him understand that time for point2point is most important to be successful - even he never brought a product to sale, he disrespects B4x, which I use to make my living... as it really is invisible... - none of his colleagues at university knows about it...
Making it visible is not just being made of OpenSource it - if someone see's it, he should be able to use it faster and more clearly as it is actually...
Sure - using Android-Studio for example is much more complex but the Developer knows that everything can be done with it and also for sure he does not allow that someone could think, he is not able to use it - so he goes the hard way...
'B' for Basic as it is in use at many places here is one of the parts also which makes my son disrespecting this language as they learn at university that 'Basic' is an outdated language which for example is not object-oriented....
One important rule can be 'there is no chance for a second first impression' - all what makes B4x negative different (mainstream-focused) from other languages or IDE's should be eliminated first before thinking about how to increase marketing... - good marketing-plans will end up in bad results if the users are not able to see their efforts clearly...
Finally I will repeat that I love B4x and I'm able to use it successful - but new Users find a product (if they really find it) from which they don't know that its much easier to use than kotlin, java or anything else... - They try to start and see thats completelly different from all other languages they ever tried to find ressources - and then they stop. - So no other new mainstream-users will hear from them about B4x...
Don't know, whether I had been able to make my POV visible to you all - but am willing to make it if you ask for it in detail...
Cheers
Herbert
I understand what you are explaining, however, I think I must insist on my point of view: It's marketing!
All those inconveniences you've told about B4X: that it's not known. That someone new gets bored and abandons it, etc.
All that, is pure marketing "problem". I insist, if B4X was a microsoft, borland/embarcadero, oracle, etc. people would use it, they would bother to look for information on how to use it, they would create "how to" from its features, etc.
That's the "problem": marketing, having a known parent/company behind it, showing images of an office with 500 workers, a customer service department, etc.
That's my point of view.
All those inconveniences you've told about B4X: that it's not known. That someone new gets bored and abandons it, etc.
All that, is pure marketing "problem". I insist, if B4X was a microsoft, borland/embarcadero, oracle, etc. people would use it, they would bother to look for information on how to use it, they would create "how to" from its features, etc.
That's the "problem": marketing, having a known parent/company behind it, showing images of an office with 500 workers, a customer service department, etc.
That's my point of view.
BTW, B4X is growing quite nicely in the last couple of months, especially since B4A became free. Faster than I expected.
There are all kinds of indicators and naturally most of them are not published anywhere.
Take the number of online forum members for example. Ignore the guests.
All day long there are about 5 times more members in this forum compared to Xamarin forum.
There are many things to do to make B4X more popular. We are working on it and we need the community help. Help us spread the word about B4X.
You can also use the new MadeWithLove custom view (XUI Views):
There are all kinds of indicators and naturally most of them are not published anywhere.
Take the number of online forum members for example. Ignore the guests.
All day long there are about 5 times more members in this forum compared to Xamarin forum.
There are many things to do to make B4X more popular. We are working on it and we need the community help. Help us spread the word about B4X.
You can also use the new MadeWithLove custom view (XUI Views):